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Miscellaneous meanderings and philosophical ramblings. The title from a spiral notebook I used to jot down my thoughts on religion and other matters some years ago. I like to write, think and express my views on various issues. Robust discussion is welcome.

Chris of Rights and Charles Martin <-- Lists of debunked Sarah Palin rumors

"Lan astaslem."
I will not submit. I will not surrender.
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Sunday, June 25, 2006

G-d vs Free will - Cage match! v.3

And the series continues. In v.1 I briefly addressed some of the logical arguments and directed the reader to resources that can provide further study beyond my abilities and what I can present directly here. With v.2 I began addressing passages that are claimed to support the view that man does not have free-will. In that particular case it was in response to an individual referring to the matter of Pharoah. The matter has come up again and some additional verses have been referenced by another indvidual.

This began with Alex responding to someone else. I've included his original remarks as he formatted them, so the reader can see one of the things I was criticizing with my reply. Having seen it again, I have to wonder if an obsessive compulsive disorder of sorts is at work.


Jesus tells us: "You have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU" (John 15:16).

He also tells us: "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME [by his own free will choice] except the Father which has sent me DRAW HIM [Greek: DRAG HIM] and I WILL raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44).

The disciples make it clear ""There is NONE that seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11b).


"For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and that [that FAITH] is NOT OF YOURSELVES [well where does it come from then, if not from US?] ; it is the GIFT OF GOD" (Eph. 2:8).

The point of this hole post is to show you, we do not choose Jesus, we don't even believe on our own, it is GOd who calls us, and God who believes in and Lives in Us. So those who do not believe is because Jesus has not chosen them. Simple really.

**** lets be honost here, do you really think God didn't know adam and eve were gonna do what they did? Do you really think God was asking them were they were in the garden because He didn't know? No, God knew well before, He asked for there sakes, and He knew they would take the bite from the Apple because God has declared the End before the begining. It is all done for a reason. That reason is:

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [thats God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!


My first reply:

Some people need to think about the implications of what they present :(

Besides being wrong about the matter.


Alex again:

Yea.... so what you gonna sit here and tell me those scriptures are lieng to us?

How about using scripture to prove what you are trying to say? There is no scripture that proves we choose God,   there is no scripture that shows we have free will. Its an idle of the heart,   and most people hold on to it for dear life.

God knew full well adam and eve flaws,   and what they were gonna do long before they did them,   He knew long before He created them,   after all He did declare the END before the BEGINING.

Understand GOd is all knowing,   ever present,   ever lasting,   ALL MIGHTY in EVERY aspect,   and maybe you will start to see this little myth of Free will. You can make choices yes,   but you cannot make a FREE CHOICE,   an UNCAUSED CHOICE.

God bless, 


And now as per my usual method, the original comments are in bold, with my replies in regular font. I've provided concluding comments at the end of the original exchange.

How about using scripture to prove what you are trying to say? There is no scripture that proves we choose God, there is no scripture that shows we have free will. Its an idle of the heart,   and most people hold on to it for dear life.

Simmer down boy. I don't have to respond by your schedule. If you haven't noticed, this isn't a real time chat room. There are many passages where we are warned to not fall away, where people are called to believe, quit acting less than Christ like, to put on the mind of Christ. Calls to action, making no sense whatsoever if we are not supposed to make choices that are real and meaningful. What you have presented does nothing to take away from the clear meaning of those passages.

God knew full well adam and eve flaws, and what they were gonna do long before they did them,   He knew long before He created them, after all He did declare the END before the BEGINING.

Understand GOd is all knowing,  ever present, ever lasting,  ALL MIGHTY in EVERY aspect,   and maybe you will start to see this little myth of Free will. You can make choices yes,   but you cannot make a FREE CHOICE, an UNCAUSED CHOICE.

Cap locks do not an argument make. BTW neither do basic html tags. Furthermore, knowledge is not causation. God can have knowledge of what people will do and most certainly incorporate that within his plan.

I've dealt with this in more detail at my blog:

G-d vs Free will - Cage match! v.1

And before you jump on Pharaoh as support for your position, I've dealt with it already:

G-d vs Free will - Cage match! v.2

Now, let's look at the passages you've referenced. However, I'm not going to insert words in the middle, breaking them up and trying to spin them as you have.

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you

One must not read more into a passage than it contains, nor apply it beyond what is reasonable. This is to the disciples and is speaking of service in history. The Bible also speaks of God's actions being preceded by his foreknowledge in Romans 8. Certainly, God, transcending time, knows who will respond to him, in any and all circumstances and times and who would serve best as disciples and accordingly, within history, chooses those very same people.

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Free will proponents do not need to deny this verse. However, your position requires reading much into it that is simply not there and to ignore what the Bible says elsewhere. The passage does not say that God refuses to draw those who desire him or that he makes people for hell or heaven with their having no choice in the matter and in essence, making them merely puppets of God's will. All that is said is that God must draw men. Inserting your spin, or the copy/paste of someone else's hack job on the verse, doesn't change anything at all.

Speaking of Christ:

Joh 1:9  That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Regarding the Pauline passage in Romans chpt 3. Let's look at a bit more of what is being said.

Rom 3:10-17  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11)  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12)  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13)  Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14)  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15)  Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16)  Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17)  And the way of peace have they not known:

Paul is referring to a Psalm, a genre of literature that most certainly contains hyperbole and figurative language.

Psa 14:1-7  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2)  The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3)  They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4)  Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5)  There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. 6)  Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. 7)  Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Considering the genre of literature Paul is referencing and his language in the Romans passage, it is clear that he's using rhetorical hyperbole in his argument. This can be confirmed by noting what is clearly said elsewhere in scripture.

Mat 7:8  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Regarding Ephesians.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You should let the passage speak for itself, rather than insert your spin and distort the flow of the passage. What is not of ourselves is the grace by which we are saved. We can place loyalty in many people, yet that is not how we receive grace unto salvation. It is only by trust and loyalty to God through His Son. There is nothing to brag about and free will does not give one opportunity to do so.

Eph 1:13-16  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, 14)  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15)  Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16)  Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers, 

Paul is thanking them for the trust they placed in God when they believed. Don't waste your time trying to gain support for your position from the preceding verses. Paul is clearly speaking to those who have already chosen to believe. Christians are predestined to good works and the complete fulfilment of salvation. That does not mean we do not choose to believe and belief is merely imposed on us willy nilly.

Romans 8:20-22 doesn't say anything against our ability to choose God regarding salvation. The passage is led into by referring to Christians and the current travails are compared to expectation of the glory that is to come. Notice the futility or vanity that is imposed leads certainly to glory. Those who have believed, can be certain of the glory that is to come including even creation itself. The current travails they were experiencing were poetically compared to longing for that eventuality.

But thanks, I now have most of v.3 for my series.


Addendum/concluding remarks:

In my first reply I had stated "Some people need to think about the implications of what they present". I've noticed that some Christians will argue that God doesn't give us a choice. They seem to think that if He did, we have reason to brag and therby diminsh God's glory and salvation by grace. I don't find the position very well supported as I've shown. What they also need to realize is that they diminsh God's glory to the point of skeptics justifying disbelief in the God of Christianity with these arguments. In the more extreme versions, we cannot be held responsible for our actions because God determines them, we do not. Unsurprisingly, this is used by skeptics to claim that such a God is not worthy of worship.

But as I believe I have shown in this series, such a position is not well supported and justifying one's disbelief on such a view, is to base it on error that can easily be corrected. That people choose to build to their rejection of God on such shallow foundations, is sad but hardly surprising. However, we as Christians need to make sure we don't unwittingly offer support to such arguments.

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

As other verses are presented in discussions or I have time to address them myself, I will add to the series.


Filed under: Apologetics -- Christianity -- Religion

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